TFTL Ep 24 When Is The Next Tour? - 70's 80's 90's and Chimps!

Speaker 1: 1:05

Tales from the Lot, episode 24,. When is the next tour? My guest is Robert Ingersoll. He's here to talk Seeing the Dead in the 70s, 80s, 90s and beyond, nim Chimpsky and the Project Nim documentary and much more. Here we go. Welcome to Tales from the Lot. This is Will. My guest this week is deadhead activist and all-around awesome person. He's coming from San Francisco. It's Bob Ingersoll. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Speaker 2: 1:30

Hey, thanks Will. I appreciate the opportunity to be here and tell my stories from the lot.

Speaker 1: 1:37

You're in San Francisco, but that's not where you're from originally, right? Where are you from, born and raised at?

Speaker 2: 1:43

No, I'm actually from Boston and my dad was in the military, so we did a lot of travel international as well. As you know, we've lived in a bunch of states Florida, north Carolina, new Jersey, massachusetts a couple of times, and Oklahoma. And then, when I turned 18, I got drafted. So I, instead of going into the army, I joined the Air Force. And one thing led to another, and when I got out of the military I had met a girl from Oklahoma. So I moved to Oklahoma in 1975 to go to undergraduate school of school. I met a guy that was teaching sign language to chimpanzees, which turns out to be Washoe, the first signing chimp, and so I got. I was pretty enamored with that, as you know.

Speaker 2: 2:39

And I mean this is a fantastic thing, I mean it really turned out to be not something that I really knew where it was going, but as soon as I met him, I you know, first day of class, I walked up to him after class and I asked him hey, can I work with you? And at that point he wasn't as internationally hugely famous like he turned. You know, like he ended up a few years later. So he allowed me to meet the chimps and a couple of days later I met a couple of chimpanzees named Allie and Vanessa, and I was, I wanted to be an orthopedic surgeon and, like everybody goes to college, they want to be a doctor or a lawyer, right? And I was 22 years old at the time. And so so I went out to meet these chimps and the moment I interacted with those two chimps it was like, wow, I don't know what this is called, but this is what I want to do. And I mean I knew that chimps were my people in the weirdest kind of way. I'm not real. I wasn't really an animal person or any of that sort of thing, animal person or any of that sort of thing, but there was something about those two chimps and then, as it turns out, chimps in general, that I had some. I don't know, I don't want to call it magic, but I understood them, they understood me and we got along well and although chimpanzees are horribly not horribly, but they are very dangerous and nothing to mess around with but for some reason I knew how to handle chimps and so for a couple of years, from 75 to 77, I worked with a bunch of different chimps and then in September of 1977, I met Nim Chimpsky, who, who is a sign language chimp, that's, you know, pretty famous. Now there's a movie and a bunch of books and stuff. I will sing the movie actually and I I became, like the movie says, one of Nim's, or Nim's, best friend.

Speaker 2: 4:47

At the same time, in September of 1977, I knew about the dead. I had Working Man's Dead and you know American Beauty and all the albums, but I'd never seen a show. You know so, and I think every deadhead out there that you know, when they went to their first show it was like something in their brain clicked, just kind of like the chimps did for me. And I went to my first show in October of 77 at the Lloyd Noble Center. I think it's one of the Dick's picks, actually it might be number three, but it's the Lloyd Noble Center show in October of 1977. Actually, I have it written down here it's the 11th of October 77. And at that show I was like most people that go to their first Dead show. I was like holy cow. This is way not the album.

Speaker 1: 5:40

A bit of a culture shock too.

Speaker 2: 5:42

Yeah, indeed, and it's 1977. I don't think the Dead were played any better in any year than 1977. So I walked out of there with my molecules rearranged Right, but at the same time I was pretty focused on the. But I met more started trading tapes between 77 and 81 or so, when I went to my second dead show at the Zoo Amphitheater I think it was 81., yeah, 81. And then again had my molecules rearranged. I think it was the last dead show that wasn't sold out. My molecules rearranged I think it was the last dead show that wasn't sold out. And uh, it was, uh, it was a magical experience and uh, it was kind of like knowing that I was a chimp. I knew I was a deadhead at that point, right, and so, uh, still pretty occupied with undergraduate school and graduate school.

Speaker 2: 6:51

So again next year, 82, and then 85, saw the next two dead shows at the zoo amphitheater. And then in 85, unfortunately the chimps that I worked with had been sold to medical research, which you saw in the movie, and I was kind of lost, looking for somewhere to plug in and I know a lot of you deadheads out there when you went to your first parking lot or went to your first show. The community speaks to you, not just the band itself or the music, but there's something about the whole community that is attractive, especially when you're looking for a family or some family connection. And in 85, we started touring and I learned how to tie dye, because you have to have money to be able to tour. And that was before everybody in the parking lot was selling something. And that was before everybody in the parking lot was selling something.

Speaker 2: 8:01

So we a friend of mine named Sean O'Brien we went on our first tour and went to Alpine Valley, went to Minneapolis, did St Louis, a bunch of shows and sold tie dye, the Rosemont Horizon, and met incredible people, met photographers, you know had come up to us. My friend Sean was like dread at the time and so his dreads were like major. And, and you know, this lady walked up to us and said hey, man, you are so interesting looking, can I take your picture? And we ended up letting her do it and then she sent us, you know, photographs back. Her do it. And then she sent us, you know, photographs back and and, uh, and it was. It was just a fun thing to do at the same time, because my chimp friends were sold to medical research.

Speaker 2: 8:38

I I was also doing, uh, newspaper articles and trying to get in magazines and on television and stuff to promote the plight of the signing, because Nim Chimps is pretty famous and so 60 Minutes and a bunch of people, like you know, shows like that national interest in his plight, and so when we went on tour we also handed out information about the chimps. So we had fun in the parking lot selling tie-dyes and stuff. More importantly, we're handing out information about my chimp friends. So, uh, and that went on until about, I don't know about, 1988, when I met who would become my wife, bell, who's sitting right here, and in 1988 we were doing a medieval show, a medieval fair, and selling tie, selling tie dye and handing out information about the dead, and I mean about the chimps and of course we were talking about by then we had been on tour and so all of our friends were deadheads and we were trading tapes and all of that.

Speaker 2: 9:44

Right, yeah, older deadheads than me, I'm kind of old, but there were at the time, uh, shaman that had tapes and knew had all these connections and and actually knew the band and and things like that.

Speaker 2: 10:04

I did see the evolution at times I I saw brent turn into to Bruce Hornsby Actually Hornsby was there, might have been, so I don't know exactly what was going on, but Hornsby showed up a couple of times when Brent was still in the band before he died, and so I I witnessed that transition and although it was I mean of course it's not pig pen, you know, because literally the Grateful Dead, as I read historically now I know all this stuff it was his band. I mean even Jerry thought it was Pigpen's band and I get it. I've heard all those tapes. I hear the complete difference in the way the dead are after pig and and before, you know, when he was in the band, it was just a different band, uh, but the uh, the nucleus of what the dead became when Jerry, kind of without taking over, took over Cause I I really think that Bob wears it as, like Jerry says, it was an insanely great front man. I mean, he did really well and I don't know if I'm pretty sure that Pig and Bob got along. But I don't think there could have been the Grateful Dead after Pigpen without someone who was as powerful as pig pen in terms of being a front man, and I, you know, I gotta say I think bob weir is freaking amazing.

Speaker 2: 11:38

I mean, I, I've seen over 150 shows and you know I never walked out of there going, oh, that sucked, I never want to come back. I mean, there might have been some shows that were, you know, shaky, but there was always one or two songs are like, oh man, that morning it was amazing or whatever. So, so for me, I get that. I mean it's going on now. People are like, oh no, I hate Dead and Company. I'm like, yeah, I've seen about 25 Dead and Company shows. I'm going to the sphere and I'm looking forward to it. Uh, I mean, and I, I see the differences, you know I appreciate those. I hear the tapes. I've got every one of the you know, uh, dave's picks and I've got 3 000 hours of cassette tapes and all that. But but really it's the music and and the interpretation of the music I think is is, uh is up to the musicians. I'm not a musician, you know what I mean, and I want to give them that leeway there. Plus, they're evolving and they're older.

Speaker 2: 12:44

Uh and so I mean I understand that, that sentiment that, uh, screw them. I don't think you know. I mean I understand that sentiment that screw them. I don't think you know. I mean it's not something that a lot of my friends and I don't talk about. I mean, but my friends, we still go to the shows, you know, and we still have a blast. I mean we saw the Dead Company shows at the Gorge here recently and then here in San Francisco. What five shows, I think five or six, and and the energy was there. It was well, you can watch the films and the clips on YouTube. That San Francisco show was amazing, I mean, and it really, you know, I guess that's a personal taste or whatever, but I, I don't want to live in the past, although I, I loved it. It was great.

Speaker 2: 13:33

Jerry was you know jerry? I mean, what can you say? I mean I have jerry stories. You know crazy ones. You know, in 19, what was it? Bell 93, 92, something like that in the boston garden. We, uh, and we were slightly altered and happy.

Speaker 3: 13:52

And after the show.

Speaker 2: 13:53

I mean we're like we were blown away and the show was so good we were literally blown away. The Boston Garden empties out. It's just me and Belle and we had moved over and sat down in some seats behind the stage to kind of you know, because we had to get back to my aunt and uncle's house, which meant going out and getting on a trolley to the Green Line Green Line to the. I'm from Boston, so I know my way around, and but we were like well, man, that's going to be a hassle. And so we sat there, you know, trying to bring our molecules back together, and uh, and then the, a sliding curtain opens up and then jerry walks out and there's nobody in the place except bell and I and jerry, and both bell and I were like jerry, like that, and he looks up and he smiles like from ear to ear and, uh, waves, he's got the briefcase too.

Speaker 2: 14:50

So we're like tripping, you know well, literally and figuratively, and uh and so uh, and he waves, doesn't say a word, smiles carefully, walks down the steps and goes out and bell, and I just looked at each other and goes, wow, that was cool. That kind of stuff, you know, it's those kind of moments and I know everybody that's on your show at least, and more so than even some of the stories we have that are like that. They're like the moments that are part of your life that you reminisce back to and and and it all kind of fits together. You know what I mean.

Speaker 1: 15:32

So uh, a lot of people talk about it. It's like that their life is this, this line, and and then they go to a grateful dead show and suddenly it's going this way, like there's that, and everybody can mark that point where their life changed.

Speaker 2: 15:45

You know, we all know when that happened, what song was playing or whatever moment it was right, and then, after you get home from tour, all you can think about is getting on the grave of dead hotline and when is the next tour? When does it start? When do we send in our mail order and all that? It was something to look forward to. You know. You come back to the grind. You do what you got to do.

Speaker 2: 16:10

You know, I mean and I hear this from I'm into Billy Strings right now, and so I and the Billy Strings scene is very reminiscent of the Grateful Dead scene in terms of the energy and the love of the scene and the music, and all that from the fans, the young fans and people like us.

Speaker 2: 16:31

We pick up on the, the similarities between what's going on with billy and what went on with the dead, because it's very similar, because it's about the music, you know, and and I think that billy appreciates that and I and and we you know we loved touring and going to multiples. You know our friends, our family and some of our friends would be like dude, you've seen him like 85 times. I mean, why do you do that? And and it's hard to explain to someone that has only been to one show or whatever that now it's different every night, and then the peripheral experiences around the show itself are different. And then, of course, after a few years, you know people that you've met on tour that you can't wait to see again, and and and. That has happened to us over. I still have friends that I met on tour that are still my friends, that are like my regular circle of friends living in my town or anything.

Speaker 1: 17:28

But definitely when there's like there's nothing I've looked forward to more than the start of tour, like like the anticipation for knowing that I'm about to go see 10 shows in a row or whatever. Like right that feeling, at that time, nothing uh greater than that that I, that I've seen.

Speaker 2: 17:45

Oh, I totally, I totally agree, and we would, uh, we, we cherish that because, uh, every now and again you'd walk into a show and from beginning to end it would be like, oh my God, you know, and it, yeah, I mean some of those Alpine Valley shows in the mid eighties 84, five, six, seven, eight, 89. I went to all of those, uh, and got magnificent seats. I was on the third row once, adam, back in the day you could bring your actual camera into a show, and I had a bunch of nice camera. Equipment was a little older, you know, so I had a nice canon camera with big lenses and stuff. So I on the third row, I'm like you can see jerry like looking at you, his eyebrows moving and shit you know, it was.

Speaker 2: 18:32

I mean, it was like the audience was part of the band and the band say this. And so I, I'm sitting there blissing and I, I pulled up, I had a big lens and I put it on my camera and pulled it up, and jerry looked at me and, and in the middle of the song, he shakes his head.

Speaker 2: 18:49

No, and so I'm like, oh, I've disappointed jerry, damn it. And so I put the camera down, I took the big lens off because you could take it off and put the smaller lens on, you know, quickly, and then I lifted it back up with the small lens and jerry goes like this, and then he poses.

Speaker 2: 19:06

You know it's like and uh, it's those kind of moments and I know you probably heard a million stories like that, but it was that, the camaraderie between the audience and the band, the understanding of the nuances of what's going on on stage. I don't know, I say it in the film actually it was. Except for Nim, the best times of our lives were at dead shows and in the parking lot and like at the laundromat in Akron, Ohio, Right, Because during that Akron show at the Rubber Bowl, during that tour, it rained a lot and our clothes were oh God, it was a mess and my friend Sean and I were camping right so we went to a laundromat, like on the day off in Akron and ran into a couple of like three old ladies that were in doing their laundry, right, and we look like deadheads, right, long haired, red, you know, crazy clothes, guatemala pants, all that stuff, right, skateboards and and these ladies were like what's your, what you know?

Speaker 2: 20:16

nicely, they were very polite and really nice. Like what do you got? Why are you here? And told them all about the dead and the, the rubber ball where the dead were playing. These ladies were like, oh, let us help you do your laundry, you know, and it was like we met old ladies in akron that had nothing to do with the dead, that that got, you know, got some pleasure from seeing us having a good time out like in america.

Speaker 2: 20:43

You know what I mean. We're from oklahoma I mean that's where our home bases were at the time and and it was the tom petty opens and dylan is, you know, in tom petty's band or whatever, and uh I, I don't know, I just personally back in those days I was way more into just the dead and didn't need to have an opening band or any of that.

Speaker 2: 21:25

And some of those we went to the, you know we went to shows like the Rainforest Benefit in New York City. But myself personally I just prefer straight up two or three set dead show, like a New Year's show or whatever. But those were anomalies, those shows with Tom Petty and all that.

Speaker 1: 21:46

I didn't see a lot of those, but I did see one where sting was the opener. That was his band was was really good. I'm a I'm a Vinnie Caliuta drummer fan and and did you see the one? In Vegas, Uh no.

Speaker 2: 22:00

Uh, which one? Oh, with the dead.

Speaker 1: 22:04

Uh no.

Speaker 2: 22:11

I saw him like Buckeye Lake, like buckeye lake and soldier field. Oh yeah, yeah, I didn't see the soldier field, but we went to buckeye lake a couple of times. We might have skipped the skim, you know, because we're in the parking lot selling tie dye, right? So sometimes we wouldn't necessarily go in early or whatever. But uh, we did see them in in vegas a couple of times with. Uh, who was that? No, no, steve Winwood, I believe.

Speaker 1: 22:31

Good, traffic yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:33

That was another one of those parking lot scenes after the show. A lot of people are, you know, not exactly all together after a show it's like whoa, where are we? And I had a Volkswagen van, like a lot of my friends and the pop top. You know I fit the stereotypical deadhead. You know stickers on the back of the car. We got pulled over several times by the police and I was so paranoid.

Speaker 2: 23:00

And I can tell you, in South Carolina we had, we had an interesting interaction. We were going, actually I gave a talk at the International Primate Protection League and then we were going to Atlanta. You know, because we planned it, we're like, oh, we'll go to IPPL and give the talk, then we'll drive to Atlanta and see the dead shows. Well, in South Carolina I drive in the van and it's got like all kinds of stickers on the back, mostly dead, and cop, car, state trooper, comes up and comes up and around us and, you know, surveys us, and then we come over a hill and there's two more, and then they come and you know, of course they pull us over and right and, uh, my taillight was out. That was their excuse and it was out, it was, but I had a bulb. So I said, well, I've got an extra bulb.

Speaker 2: 23:45

But they're like by then they're like, no, we're gonna search your car and I bunches of stuff, our and stuff, because by that time we weren't selling tie dye, belle and I were just more touring and the business, the International Primary Protection League, talk about NIM and this and that, and, and they went through all the bags, threw all this stuff out, you know, pulled my pants down, looking in the waistband and Belle's a court reporter. So she's like you can't do this. And they're like, hey, we got the guns and the badges, we can do whatever we want. Fortunately we had no drugs. They could find nothing to bust us for and they ultimately let us go. We went to the first rest area pulled over, I fixed the taillight. Then we went to the shows rest area pulled over, I fixed the taillight. Then we went to the shows, which were fabulous three days, but it was a little unnerving, you know so those kind of things, and I'm sure lots of people had even worse experiences than that, you know.

Speaker 2: 24:41

So, that was minor, relatively speaking. But in Vegas, in the parking lot, I went out to my van and wouldn't start and I knew what was wrong. The coil was messing up and so I couldn't really think. We had like five people with us and I had some. We sold bumper stickers and a bunch of other things like that, so I had all the people in the van get in the driveway to the uh, to the silver bowl, you know, people going out and so, hold, you know selling stickers, at the same time identifying the volkswagen vans that were going out and going. Hey, man, you got a coil for a 88 van and and, uh, lo and behold, I mean I knew this would happen because I've been on tour for eight or nine years.

Speaker 2: 25:32

By then I knew there were some resourceful deadheads out there that were driving really old buses and stuff.

Speaker 2: 25:39

And, uh, this one dude pulls over and goes yeah, man, I got like eight of them, you know, and so we went through that and it was so cool because he stopped, pulled over, helped me install it and it was a two prong instead of a three prong coil, but the third prong was just the ground, so we just plugged up the hot and the cold to the coil and it worked. And so I'm like hey man, how much, because they're usually like 60, 80 bucks, right, you know, catch me some other time. And it was that. That's the kind of thing that drew us to keep on coming back. You know, because we met so many great people in Minneapolis. We met a couple of people that we hadn't had a shower in like four days, and it was like 10 in the morning and they're like hey, you guys, we, we live right around the corner, you want to come to our house and take a shower? And we're like really, we went to these people's houses and took a shower.

Speaker 2: 26:43

We we've stayed at Daryl and Rose. We, I, daryl and Rose we met these people in Alpine actually, and a couple of years later we ran into them and we were in Washington DC and they invited us to stay at their house for a couple of shows and you know they were like serious deadheads, like we were. You know it were those kind of events that really kept us going.

Speaker 3: 27:14

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Speaker 2: 29:09

So we just had a fabulous time. I mean, I took my mom to a show at Bayfront Center in 1988 at the Bayfront Center in St Petersburg, and the show I took her to, the last song was Morning Dew, and the spotlight came and I believe this is on YouTube. You can watch the whole show. And and Jerry did one of those tear jerking morning dues with the spotlight just on him, and I turned and looked at my mom, tears rolling down her face, you know, and she's wearing a tie dye dress and she had helped me sell die all day, went off and walked around in the parking lot, came back with Dead Base 2. You know because I told her, yeah, they've got this book out there, it's called Dead Base 2,. You know because I told her, yeah, they've got this book out there, it's called Dead Base and it has all the songs. You know because.

Speaker 2: 30:01

So you know, my mom was interested in what the hell I was doing, you know, when I was 20, whatever years old, and so when I went and took a break while she was, I came back with a Grateful Dead California shirt that had a frog on it. My mom collected frogs. My mom wore that shirt all the time when I visit, people come up and go. Your mom wears that Grateful Dead shirt all the time. She's the hit around here. You know that's awesome. Yeah, you know it's that kind of thing that you can. I took cousins and friends, you know that never experienced it. You know, one of my cousins were at the show at the boston garden and and she's like first of all it's they hadn't even turned the lights out and people are like reefing up, you know, and right and the whole place is smoke filled and she's like the governor's here.

Speaker 2: 30:53

What's what is going on? There's a governor of massachusetts tom's a deadhead, you know and so the.

Speaker 2: 30:58

Kennedys are all deadheads and so I'm like, yeah, it's kind of a different world. My cousin's name is Marty and we had fabulous seats and she now she has those ticket stubs framed in her house on a Boston Garden poster and next to where it says you know all the things that go on at the garden, they have the Grateful Dead on that poster, and so she has her tickets attached right to the Grateful Dead it's. You know those kind of things. But mostly for us anyway, was the music you know and the love of the music that could make you smile and have dance like you just can't not dance and or have emotional reactions so deep that at the first note of the song it just brings tears to your eyes, like morning dew, for example.

Speaker 2: 32:13

Uh, it's still a blue for me of mine. That said, you know, because I hey you want to come to the dead, I got some extra. Oh, no, next time. You know, now, when I see those same people are here in the last 15 years since jerry's been gone or so, uh, they're like man, I wish I would have went to that show like, yeah, I've had some friends like that that uh at the time weren't, weren't real into it, uh, and were reluctant to go.

Speaker 1: 32:36

They were doing other things, they were doing life things, uh, and then just have recently come back and said oh, you know, we should have went with you because we've recently discovered just how good this music is right and now everybody's like.

Speaker 2: 32:47

It's like on television shows and everybody you know talking about how everybody was a dead head, you know, and all this you know.

Speaker 2: 32:55

So, yeah, it's, uh, it's something that I I'm really glad that we didn't miss out on. We, uh, we had a great time like. This shirt, for example, is a is a shirt that a friend of ours in oklahoma did. Her name was ann and this is a. Bonner springs what's the sand springs June 24th and 25th 1991. I've seen Mickey with this shirt on playing at another show. So and I believe, sent, you know, obviously a bootleg shirt, but pretty damn good bootleg.

Speaker 2: 33:31

And it glows in the dark, so it was that, that culture that you know, and artists, and so it was that culture that you know and artists and other musicians that appreciated all of the dead. You know, because go to a show, you're going to hear other people playing in the parking lot before and after.

Speaker 1: 33:51

That's what I miss so much. What's that? That's what I miss so much is the drum circles. Mainly, I mean just being able to walk through and hear different ones coming in, like at the beginning of that infrared roses album, for instance, where it's like somebody walking through the lot and you hear like trucking coming out of somebody's van and the drum circle starts happening and then the guy that walks by your ear it says doses, you know, like all of that stuff.

Speaker 2: 34:16

Yeah indeed it was a place. It. The parking lot scenes now are Kind of out, so huge and not quite as well, I don't know. I guess why not when we were going to shows. That Until the end, when it got a little nutty and there was, you know, like in Orlando, there were so many people showed up to the show that they were trying to get tear gas and you know, and so there's good and bad to that. Too many people into the, you know, and you were around at the end.

Speaker 1: 34:56

I was at Deer Creek when they broke down the wall and saw what could happen.

Speaker 2: 35:00

Yeah, we were at those shows we actually our last shows were in, weren't they those shows, the ones that were in Right before they went live? Yeah, right before that, the last shows before.

Speaker 1: 35:12

Chicago yeah, that was the last ones.

Speaker 2: 35:15

Friends of ours had extra tickets to Chicago and we could have gone, but it just there was some foreboding or something in the air and we weren't feeling it, you know, and Jerry looked terrible, and so we declined, I mean, and now we're sometimes we're like, oh, we should have went to those shows and I'm like, nah, I don't think so. It was just so hard. That tour was very difficult. Amongst our deadhead friends it was almost as if and I can remember conversations like is he going to die right on stage? You know that kind of thing. So it was.

Speaker 2: 35:57

It was difficult to see and watch, because we loved that guy, you know, and I think a lot of us wished we could have said something or done something, but, as steve parish and all the close dead people say, there was nothing we could do. I mean, we tried, you know, but you're not, you couldn't. Plus, I don't know, I've been, you know, I've had my times with drugs, you know it. Uh, it can grab you and if you're not, you know, able to step back and uh, take a deep breath and, you know, go, I don't want to die here. Uh, it could. It's just imagine if Jerry was still alive today.

Speaker 1: 36:41

Yeah, I mean thinking about that.

Speaker 2: 36:43

Well, yeah, but I mean it is what it is and the history of it all is what it is now, and I'm just glad we participated and had so much damn fun, because that was, you know, jerry said it I'm out here to have a good time, you know, and fun is the name of the game. And he certainly did give us an opportunity to have a lot of fun.

Speaker 2: 37:04

And I'm most grateful to him, the band, all the ticket people you know that we sent our envelopes to to get our tickets the roadies, all those. Actually, a few years ago, bonhams, an auction house here in town, did Ramrod's estate sale and sold one of Jerry's Travis Bean guitars. It sold for like $400,000 and a bunch of other stuff and Ramrod's mandolin was in that sale and you can imagine that, uh, jerry had played that mandolin right and the the estimate was pretty low. Uh, and at the time my wife has a good job and we we have, you know, a ample amount of money and and so we're sitting there and she goes go ahead, bid. So I'm bidding on ramrods mandolin.

Speaker 2: 38:03

Just bidding is cool you know, we're in a room full of people that are bidding for two hundred thousand dollar items and stuff, you know, and uh, I got to like 850 bucks and the guy goes, he hits the hammer and I win. I'm like whoa, holy cow.

Speaker 2: 38:19

So we, we have ramrods, mandolin and, and you know, wow and of course, hundreds of posters and and, as you probably know, I owned a grateful dead store during that time that two guys tied eyes turned into a store called jungle gems and we uh, we sold grateful dead merchandise stuff and and was it officially licensed?

Speaker 2: 38:43

oh, yeah, yeah, we, we dealt with the band uh so we, uh, we got all the band related stuff posters and this and that, shirts and and all that liquid blue stuff by that that time liquid blue by the not early 90s they had pretty much. You know, we met those liquid blue guys in like 85 or 86 at the Rosemont Horizon when they were first starting and I traded something to them for the there's a Rainforest Action Network Panther tie-dye that they had one of their first shirts and I still have it actually and that evolved because their stuff is quality and iconic yeah, yeah, really.

Speaker 2: 39:24

And so we, uh, we sold all that stuff. We didn't sell drug imagery, no pot leaves or any of that stuff, no pipes, and it was like a dead show, a dead store with gu stuff and African stuff. But none of that, because you know behind the scenes, as you, you've seen the film, so you know what we were all about. Uh, we also sponsored the David Gans grateful dead hour for three or four years, so we kind of indoctrinated Oklahomans into the grateful dead. I still have friends that come up to me in Oklahoma and go oh my God, I miss Jungle Timbs and the Dead Hour and all that. And I'm like, well, you know, I don't really miss retail, but some of those things I miss. And then they're like, well, dude, we've got tapes, we've got your commercial, and I'm like, yeah, so do I, because I was a paper at the time. So, but but we incorporated our you know, our fun life, the Grateful Dead touring and and the music and all of that, into the activism.

Speaker 2: 40:25

And I mean, I liked Grateful Dead stuff, the shirts and all of that, and and what better way to get somebody to come in and listen to what you've got to say about saving chimps and and the chimpanzees that I worked with at the university and, uh, you know we played the grateful dead in there and we we always had great bootlegs and stuff. So people come in to just to chit chat, you know, just to come and talk. You know, and you mentioned infrared roses we play. We got that when it came out and played it in the store. That that is, that is some trippy stuff, yeah. So uh, we sold. We actually sold some music in there as well. So, uh, and we saw widespread panic and dark star orchestra and you know several other bands, things, uh and uh. And had my employees talk about our activism.

Speaker 2: 41:16

Because during that period of time was when I was actually at the black beauty ranch, which you saw in the film and some of that stuff, the the stuff that was at the black beauty ranch, my wife bell here she shot most of that, like the scene where nim is pushing that barrel around. That was bell on camera and I mean we rolled in there not knowing what was going to happen and I handed her my, handed her my stereo video camera, sony video camera that you know they got nice by 91 or 92. And I showed her how to work it real quick. And as we're driving down the driveway, that van, in the that you see the little wheel sticker and Jerry face of Jerry. That was my van, I mean the movie is out of sync a little bit.

Speaker 2: 42:03

But I handed it to her and said, hey, film until they tell you to stop. And then, when they tell you to stop, keep filming, you know when they walk away. And fortunately they just let us film. And you see where I met Nim for the first time and he runs back and forth and then we're both like whoa is that, you know? And then you know it was like, it was like an old, old friends, so uh, the name of the film.

Speaker 1: 42:28

It's, uh, it's project nim yeah, that's, that's it I, I gave it a viewing and it's uh, it's amazing, it's it's a little bit sad, it's a little bit funny. Um, it's, uh, it's amazing. It's a little bit sad, it's a little bit funny. It's definitely enlightening and yeah, I can't say enough.

Speaker 1: 42:46

I recommend it to anybody to definitely view this and the work that you do. In it. You definitely see the relationship between you. There's a few people that have a relationship with N, with them before you come along and then, when you come along, you can see the difference and it's and it's like, it's like Han and Chewy or something I don't know, but the way you like it really came across a difference. And you know, documentaries are made, however they're made, and the viewpoint is whoever's making the documentary, obviously, but uh, but you could definitely see that there was a connection between you two specifically well, I appreciate that.

Speaker 2: 43:28

I I do think that it we, uh we'd been approached a lot by other people to do, you know, films and documentaries about my relationship with nim, but we we resisted that for a long time. And then a woman named Elizabeth Hess came along and wrote a book called Project NIMH and I participated in that. Well, first of all, I like Elizabeth and I knew that she was going to do a good job and I knew she was going to write the book anyway and so I wanted to participate. And then, shortly after the book came out and I believe what 19, no, no, 2008, I believe is when the book came out and very shortly after that, two Academy Award winning producer named Simon Chin, from the UK, who did man on Wire and Searching for Sugar Men, amongst other things Extraordinarily talented producer and really awesome dude. We're like friends now.

Speaker 2: 44:20

Actually, about two and a half years ago we were in London to do a book release. I've just recently written a couple of books and the first book. We were doing a book release party and we made it so that Billy Strings shows and the book stuff happened at the same time Coincidentally, not really, but we went to a Billy show and I contacted Simon. I'm like, hey, simon, we got some extra tickets, you want to come? So Simon came and saw Billy and he even said, hey, what label is he on? And I'm like he's on Warner, I think. Oh, I've got to deal with Warner, so who knows? But, but he loved Billy and but, more importantly, back to Project NIMH. And so I said, well, I don't know what about James Marsh, who's the director? And he did Theory of Everything and man on Wire.

Speaker 2: 45:25

So we went to see man on Wire, like a couple of weeks or a month or so before it won the Academy Award, and Bell and I were like these guys want to make a movie about yeah, so they're extremely talented. And we knew that they were. They were the guys. And then we, you know, we sort of negotiated. It was more like a handshake, friendly conversation, and I knew they were. You know, I'm like you guys are going to be the one I'm. Actually James Marsh has been in the set right here while we negotiated the deal and and it's a, I think, is it Rotten Tomatoes? Is that what it's called, rotten Tomatoes?

Speaker 2: 46:04

Some 17th best documentary of all time, apparently so, and I get, I get letters and emails from all over the world. Once got emails from Iran, from young female students at the University of Tehran that said to me you know, we are our hero. And I'm like, oh, please stop. You're my hero, ladies. You're going to school, you're going to university in Iran passing around a bootleg copy of Project NIMH amongst their animal rights group in Tehran, risking their lives to be able to view a film. So it's that sort of thing that gives you that kind. You know, because I do mention the dead in the film.

Speaker 2: 46:51

You know, and I do some lyrics, lyrics kind of just came out of my brain at the right moment, not that I practiced, but Bell and I we talked about, you know, what possibly was going to be asked and how I would do the interviews. And a lot of my friends are like, man, you're a natural, and I just think that I've lived it. It's authentic. Like now I don't have no script or anything, we're just having a conversation, but I've lived all of this stuff enough to be able to to express it in the way that I think people understand.

Speaker 2: 47:27

And when you see something, yeah, indeed, and I think that that passion is the same sort of passion, because I think that's what, the way I say it in the film. I say well, you know, I think it's like word for word. I think that's what, the way I say it in the film. I say, well, you know, I think it's like word for word. I mean, I don't know, I'm a deadhead and I think I might rather hang out with Nim than Jerry, and for me that's saying something you know, and that and that's like you know, that's having two things that huge in your life. That feels like it's that important to you.

Speaker 2: 48:03

I feel really blessed and very lucky to have been able to have that in my life and still pursue it. I mean, we still see, we still see, like I said, dead and company and we, you know, we go to Sweetwater up in Marin to Bobby's club and saw Molly total there, seen Bobby there a couple of times and and still, you know, we still participate in, you know, reed mathis is, uh, is as a friend and uh, when I had jungle gems, uh, we brought david nelson band to norman. I'm like sitting in my house in oklahoma, which I still own the house. Uh, david nelson's sitting in my house and I've got albums that I bought when I was 17 years old of the new writers.

Speaker 2: 48:40

It's like well, this is so surreal I can't, so much so that I forgot to get him to sign the albums, you know. But it was one of those things that even Nelson and Barry Celeste and the band, they understood my trip. You know, barry. Actually I showed him like three and a half hours of some of the footage that you saw on Project NIMH from the Oklahoma days. I showed all that to him. So it's something that you can see, the passion when in what's more like love actually, to be honest with you, I mean, and when you see love on film, like that, it's not, it's not hard to recognize, and I think that like I said, those students in Tehran and and many hundreds of people that have written to me over the years, you know asking me how do I get to be you?

Speaker 2: 49:32

And I'm like well, you have to find something you love and pursue it, and don't take no for an answer, and do the best you can to keep your chin up even when things are down, because, believe me, there were a lot of not so fun times. I mean, I wasn't always a movie star. You know what I mean, so you know I had to. I had to do some things that that were not pleasant. I mean, I handed out flyers on our campus one time and got thrown down by the cops and my flyers taken away and that sort of thing. But that doesn't happen now. Now they invite me to give talks and show the right thing and pursuing positive and goals that that are are pure and and and that's the other thing about the Grateful Dead that's pure.

Speaker 2: 50:30

And I think at the at the root you know there of course are all kinds of terrible stories about getting busted and this and that, but at the root of it all is love and understanding and music and getting along and all the things that you can't really put your finger on, but you can feel it.

Speaker 2: 50:47

You feel it at the show. Free hugs, for example. What better way to express, you know, that sentiment than when you see a sign? I remember the first time I saw one of those signs free hugs. I'm like whoa dude, that is perfect, you know. So it's that community, that that I I respond to and I hope that other people will. You know, even if you don't necessarily think that dead and companies as good as the dead or the Jerry band or Jerry Band or whatever, at the root of all that is the Grateful Dead and I hope I have as good a time at the Sphere as I've ever had at any show I had at the Giants, the baseball field this year for Dead Company, the final tour or whatever, and at the Gorge it feels the same.

Speaker 1: 51:43

It's's different, but it's the same same family.

Speaker 2: 51:45

I, you know I I can't new cousins, but same family yeah, indeed, and, and you know what, you see, all these young kids that say things like well, what was it like to see, jerry, you know, and it's, it was better, yeah, it was better. How did you say it was better, when I just said it was?

Speaker 1: 52:05

better.

Speaker 2: 52:06

Well, the reality is that, thank goodness, those kids can get on YouTube and watch full shows and understand what was the root of what is happening now, and although you weren't there you can still. Yeah, indeed, it ripples out Exactly and you can still experience it. I mean, you buy a hundred inch screen TV, like we got going on here, and throw in the Great or Dead movie.

Speaker 2: 52:38

You know, I mean a. It's a wonderful time to be a deadhead. To be perfectly honest with you. Uh, david lemieux is absolutely phenomenal. That I have all, all of those discs.

Speaker 2: 52:50

Uh, it's a. It's a thriving community and and it's evolved. I mean, unfortunately we've lost a few along the way and that's just the way families are. That happens, you know, it's an encapsulation of life itself. You know, and I love seeing Bobby still carrying on and doing, you know, doing as many shows as he does.

Speaker 2: 53:16

He retired years ago. I mean, he does a lot of shows as he does. He retired years ago. He does a lot of shows. He really does. He inspired, like I said, I'm into Billy Strings. I see the inspiration that Billy gets from Bobby and the ultra respect that Billy pays. Bobby went to Billy's wedding a couple of months ago and played at the wedding, you know, and billy talks about that in an interview, like with ultra reverence, you know. So, uh, and for the kid billy is a kid, 30 something years old, to be able to play with his heroes. You know it's, it's a cool thing and and uh, and I, you know, I feel lucky to have lived during this period of time where Jerry and Bob Dylan and all the band Frank Zappa and all the bands that I got to see.

Speaker 2: 54:08

I mean, we went to see Madonna here a couple of years ago. We went to the Taylor Swift shows in Los Angeles. We didn't pay a lot of money but, we got in the lottery.

Speaker 2: 54:29

But I tell you, those kids that go to that show, they might not be deadheads but they've got that same kind of passion for Taylor and Taylor's music and Taylor's message, that that we kind of have. And so, even though I don't I'm not, I mean I couldn't name one Taylor song I'm glad I went and it's a different cultural experience. It is indeed something that those young kids can reach out to and find a space that they can identify with. Well, it's different, but you know what? It's not a competition. Music's not a competition. It's about what you like. I mean, I'm telling you, I saw literally hundreds and hundreds of people singing. I looked around and, like it was, everybody was singing along, they knew every word.

Speaker 1: 55:30

You got to.

Speaker 2: 55:31

You got to respect that and and you see that they're like turned to their moms crying. You know, I it's, it's. You know, like I said, I think that music isn't a competition and it's about, I mean, and taylor can play, you know she can write songs uh it might not be what you know, necessarily our cup of tea, but uh, but she definitely has got something going on.

Speaker 2: 55:57

But you know, like I said, I got something going on. But you know, like I said, I got the lucky I got to see. You know, uh, see, bands that you know clapped and with Freddie King, and all that in the seventies.

Speaker 1: 56:08

You know you mentioned Zappa. Like what. I'm a massive Zappa fan. Like what? What era of Zappa were you seeing Zappa?

Speaker 2: 56:19

Oh, were you seeing zappa? Oh, I saw zappa in the 70s and into the you know and towards the end. But god, when was that zappa?

Speaker 1: 56:24

show was probably around 78 or so.

Speaker 2: 56:25

Uh, terry bozio was at the height of his powers I mean his band was like that giant band we saw. I saw him like three different times. I I got lucky and when I was 14 my best friend's older brother was into zappa so he had those early you know, like the only in it for the money and all those early albums, that's the best one and schooled us little kids on zappa.

Speaker 2: 56:52

You know, and uh, and when you listen to that stuff, you, you appreciate the genius of, because every single thing that goes on in his Apple record is written down on a piece of paper and it's like whoa, he was super phenomenal. I mean we we saw Little Feet on New Year's Eve in 1979 with Lowell George and Bonnie Raitt New Year's Eve in 1979 with Lowell George and Bonnie Rae. I mean I've hung out with RL Burnside and the North Mississippi All-Stars and all that during that time that I had the Grateful Dead store, because that kind of opened the doors for me to be able to have a connection to promoters and this and that, and so I just feel very lucky because music is at the key to all that. We, we have friends that are musicians that have helped us out along the way.

Speaker 2: 57:45

That uh, uh, brian haas, who is jacob fred, jazz odyssey, uh, he has done a number of promotions for us and and uh, and several local, uh, oklahoma Hostie and and other folks that play in the Oklahoma City area that have helped us out along the way with the chimp stuff and and artists. So, and you know, and at the same time you can turn them onto the dead. I I gotta say that I bet the first time that or the first time that he was really immersed in the grateful dead, uh, uh, reed mathis, who now plays with you, know almost all the all the people in the bay area that are related with the dead. He actually plays a lot of dead and we we went to a show recently where most of the songs were dead stuff. So and I I think that that he might have first really been immersed.

Speaker 2: 58:40

Yeah he was immersed in the Grateful Dead music in my store. So and he was. He was the bass player in Jacob Fred Jazz Odyssey during that period of time. Phenomenal If you're. If you're not familiar with Reed Mathis, you become familiar, he is a fabulous musician. Do you know?

Speaker 1: 59:00

I know, I know the name but, but I'm not familiar.

Speaker 2: 59:03

Yeah, he's a first of all, he's a great guy and a fabulous musician. He's, I believe he was a concert trained cellist and his his interpretations, interpretations of hendrix and all kinds of stuff. He, like I said he was a bass player but recently he's been playing six string and we saw him recently with some of the guys from the animal liberation orchestra, the libo, I believe, is his name. So I mean, obviously we're into the dead but we, like Jerry said you know music, go out and see people. He did bluegrass. I mean, you know he did jazz.

Speaker 1: 59:42

Yeah, well, you know he would play with, like with the new writers. He'd play a set and then he'd, you know, and then play like three sets with the dead and then go home and practice banjo or something after that, you know.

Speaker 2: 59:54

Indeed, and fortunately I got to actually uh speak to david nelson about all those days. You know how was it to? You know I, I said something like what was it like to like play with jerry and this, and that he says, dude, I had to go on after miles davis, and I'm like whoa, I never even thought about it. Like that he said, yeah, I was the most nervous person on the planet. It was like miles davis opens for the new writers, holy cow, you know so, uh, and bill graham has a lot, lot to uh, a lot to do with all of that. I mean, he uh paired together lots of different bands that wouldn't normally go together.

Speaker 2: 1:00:35

Speaking of Bill Graham, in 1988, we were at the New Year shows, my friend Sean and I, and we had the flu or something and we had the back door of my van open at Pop Top, and back then the little scooters weren't something that everybody had. And all of a sudden, this scooter pulls up behind our van and sticks his head in and goes hey guys, you, what's going on? And we look up and it's, it's bill graham, and we're like we, you know, we're sitting there drinking tea or whatever, and and we're like tripping. We're like bill, how you, you know. It's like he shakes our hand. He's super nice and asks us we need anything. I'm like this is the promoter of this is Bill Graham, for God's sakes, you know, being that cordial and that polite and nice, and we offered him a cup of tea. He's like no, no, you know, it's all good. It was that kind of a scene that I mean. I've heard a lot of stories about Bill Graham, this and that, but my experience with Bill Graham was super awesome.

Speaker 2: 1:01:35

I've super awesome and those hard-ass stories yeah, yeah, he was like kind of into the money or whatever, apparently. But you know, I get it because I promoted shows and you know promoting shows is no fun. But fortunately for me, I, I, you know we made money and then all the profits we gave back to the bands. We, you know, like I said, we did new writers and we did uh, I mean not new writers david nelson band, we did guitar shorty once or twice, and swag, which is a band based in missouri, that's like a dead cover band. So we, we tried to expose as many people as we could to what we were doing and worked that chimp activism into the whole scene because it just made sense to me that well, if I'm into these two things that much, I can blend them together in a way that seems and it was, it was authentic because I'm really this guy, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:02:29

But when you see the film, even I, when I see the film and I've seen it hundreds of times now, because you know it's played around and I've done lots of film festivals and screenings and this, and that we went to Edinburgh and the Toronto Film Festival, boston, you know all kinds of places, bella and I, and we sit there and go whoa, it's such a trip to see yourself on a big screen, you know, but it helped and it helped our chimp friends. Things are are not perfect, but they're better. And, uh, most of the chimps in the United States not all, but most are in sanctuaries now. Uh, or zoos which, uh, you know, uh, I'm not a big fan of zoos, but uh, but it is what it is. And and they get treated with respect and they're not used as pin cushions in medical labs anymore, and that's not been going on for quite some time.

Speaker 2: 1:03:24

I still help run a monkey sanctuary in Oklahoma called the Oklahoma Primate Sanctuary, which we started during the time before the movie, and all that when we were running the store because I had a little extra money and we could do that. It's now 30, over 30 years old. We have 120 monkeys. I'm on the board of directors of a of an animal sanctuary called Oliver and friends in Oklahoma as well. So I, you know, and they're deadheads actually the, the, the founders, you know, jenny and Jason.

Speaker 3: 1:03:53

So you know.

Speaker 2: 1:03:54

Jenny and Jason. So you know, I walk into their house. They got Dylan posters and you know. And they're into the dead as well. That's great and, like most people, what's that? Really messed up animals there. Yeah, we take in cows with three legs and stuff like that. We get prosthetic legs made for them and stuff. We do the hard cases. But it's that passion, you know, uh, and deadheads. If it isn't, you know, if you can't say anything about them, you can definitely say that they're passionate about what they're into and uh and it carries across into their lives.

Speaker 2: 1:04:31

Jerry said it himself he's like man every. You never know. You know doctors, lawyers, mayors, governors. You know vice president. What's that?

Speaker 1: 1:04:42

Vice presidents.

Speaker 2: 1:04:43

Yeah, vice president, yeah, yeah, yeah, indeed, so. So it it's something that we all can. We can kind of glom onto and and respect one another in a way. You know that. You know we don't have to hate each other. You know love is a lot, a lot better than hate. You know be kind all the time, all that I mean. I'll never forget the first time I saw be kind bumper stickers. It was like whoa, how cool is this?

Speaker 2: 1:05:10

yeah I mean we, we toured, simple, great idea yeah, indeed, it's like you know, be kind all the time. Uh, we, we toured during the time. Great idea, yeah, indeed, it's like you know, be kind all the time. We toured during the time when Nelson Mandela was still in jail, so we gave away Abolish Apartheid stickers and this and that. So, besides the music, you can bring a little bit of that social justice and environmental justice and racial and you know, all the kind of things that we hope to solve and getting along is a lot better than not getting along.

Speaker 2: 1:05:43

And finding some common ground and working from there. Because when you talk to somebody, instead of yelling at them or writing nasty messages to them or people that you don't even know, that's not helpful. Writing nasty messages to them or people that you don't even know, that that's not helpful. And uh, I hope that you know our, you know, and bobby and the band now dead and company, they're involved in getting out the vote and, uh, making you know, getting involved in your life because this is our life, so, so anyway, uh, yeah we've, uh, I I can't tell you how much fun we've had here in San Francisco in the last 18 years.

Speaker 2: 1:06:21

I don't know, I can't even tell you how many times we've been to the Fillmore or to to the great American music hall or to the Orpheum Is that the name of that place? Yeah, the Orpheum, or Bobby's place, or the Warfield or or Phil's club, before it closed. You know, and and actually running into, you know, like Phil, you know, who is an awesome gentleman. You know I've gotten to sign. He put out a book a couple of years ago. I went and you know, of course, stood in line and got to meet Phil. We went, we met Bobby a couple of times.

Speaker 1: 1:06:54

He's not searching for the sound. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:06:55

Yeah, that's exactly right, phil. Uh, we went. We met bobby a couple of times. Was that searching for the sound? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, oh yeah, yeah, that's exactly right uh, I love that book.

Speaker 1: 1:07:00

That was one of all the dead books.

Speaker 2: 1:07:02

I was one of that one, and mickey hart's book were like my favorites yeah, I, I also like there's another one by one of the roadies I forget which one it is, but it's pretty good too, uh, you know, and everyone has their own perspective. We run into steve parish a number of times, and Mountain Girl and also Donna. You know they do a lot of benefits around here, so we're like, yeah, let's go to that benefit. I'm just glad to be able to speak to you about all this and hope that those people out there that are going to shows, you know, show all the kindness and the I I I'd be perfectly honest with you. I've always had good times at at music events, uh, and, like I said, the billy string scene is very similar, uh, and there's a lot of crossover. You meet a lot of deadheads that you know would talk dead when we're in the line, wait for posters or whatever. So, and the music is is inspiring and, uh, joyful, you know you said that you have a book out or coming out.

Speaker 2: 1:08:15

Yeah, I do have a book out. Actually, one of the books I have right here is our first book, which is called Primatology, ethics and Trauma the Oklahoma Chimp Studies. They're academic books, but there's there's a lot in here that is not academic necessarily. So we approach this from an academic perspective. And the next book is coming out very soon. This one you can get on Amazon or from our publisher, routledge, which is R-O-U-T-L-E-D-G-E. Routledge is a publishing company, an academic publishing company in the UK. Our next book, I believe, is up for presale, maybe on Amazon, and it's called Trauma in Sentient Beings, the Nature Nurture, nimh, and it's coming out, I think, in June and this is actually a picture of me on the cover.

Speaker 1: 1:09:16

That's me right there, wherever right there, and that's the less gray one.

Speaker 2: 1:09:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, and that's Washoe right there who is the first signing chimp. And we're sitting there signing. That's the sign for what. So I'm going what? And she's about to sign what she wants, which I might have something under my foot or whatever. And the next book has a picture of me being groomed. The next book has a color picture on the cover and it's got a picture of Nim and I and he had accidentally scratched me, I believe, right here on the side of my face, and as soon as he did it he was like and so the picture is him about to groom my face to make sure I'm okay, it's really. You've seen the film so you know that there's some remarkable footage in that film and even if you're not into any of this stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:10:10

If you just see the 10 or 15 minutes of footage in the film that's nim and I interacting, you'll uh, you'll have a different opinion about the relationship that you can have with another animal and maybe even change your mind about you know how animals know, interact with the world. You know I wasn't always a vegan or vegetarian but over the years I've come to realize that animals just like us, you know, and especially chimps. Since I got a chance to work with chimps it has been very eye-opening. I mean, I gave a talk in like 1983 or 84 at a elementary school called Little Axe, outside of Norman, oklahoma, and after the talk this kid came up to me and he said Mr Ingersoll, do you eat meat?

Speaker 2: 1:11:12

And I was like man, come on, you know, because it was about lunchtime and I hadn't really thought about it like that and I said yeah, and he said, well, how do you expect me to believe anything you say about chimps if you don't care about cows and pigs and goats? And at that moment I realized, well, you know, if I'm going to be this guy that's going to, you know, talk about animals and protecting animals and being kind to animals. I can't eat the other animals, you know. Talk about animals and protecting animals and being kind to animals. I can't eat the other animals, you know. And I didn't have anything for this kid, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:11:40

So I said what do your parents do? You know, his dad was a doctor, his mom was a college professor or something, but, uh, but it was like that kid was asking me some of the really, you know, important questions for me to be able to figure out before I would become this guy that's sitting right here. I mean, I'm not telling anybody to do anything in their lives, but if you, uh, you know, uh, you have to do what you have to do about all that, I'm, you know, I'm vegan, but I'm not going to browbeat you about it.

Speaker 2: 1:12:09

Uh, but when you see that footage of me and them interacting. It's pretty damn eyeopening. I think, and I think that you'll agree, will that, that it's, uh, it's powerful and uh, and now that I work with farm animals. Uh, I've even had my eyes opened about that sort of thing. You know we have.

Speaker 1: 1:12:27

I was gonna ask you how is your? Does that change your relationship and the cognitive or communicative skills of of other animals?

Speaker 2: 1:12:35

you know I'm not as good at it. I mean I can deal with apes, for you know chimps and now orangs. I've worked with the rings a little bit and uh, and now that I've been around, jason and and jenny, uh, their relationship with these animals is remarkable and you know, you've seen the footage of like ducks that once they get to know their owner they come up and hug and stuff. That's the kind of thing I've witnessed Three legged cow that we built we I say we and the executive, we are a board member but I don't do the work and I got to say it's the volunteers at our, our, our sanctuary, that the, the farm animal sanctuary, oliver and friends that're getting helped by humans, and uh, and I can stand back and just see the same sort of thing you see with them and I in their relationships.

Speaker 2: 1:13:47

And at the monkey sanctuary what we do is we, we take animals from, mostly from labs. Now we take. We have some pets, ex-pets, which we we don't recommend. Do not get a monkey for a pet. It's a bad idea and we'll end up being involved in the equation. We really don't want to rescue another pet, we'd rather work on the ones that are in labs right now and what we do is we integrate lab monkeys into groups of other monkeys and we try to let them be monkeys as best we can. Sometimes we have to teach them or we have to show them other monkeys that have gone through the same thing. So it's it. It it's very fulfilling work, I got to say, but sometimes it's hard, and one of the things about Grateful Dead tour back then even cause we've been running that monkey sanctuary for over 30 years, it like whoa, I get the, I get the decompress a little bit and just let let the air out.

Speaker 2: 1:14:45

You know, and go, and you know I mean bell and I attended some shows at shoreline. Actually, when we first got together, uh, we were at a shoreline show, I believe in 91, right in uh 91, and we were like we were at the boston garden. We're a little bit, you know, like whoa, and at the break we couldn't get up. We're like no, no, I don't think I'm gonna walk right now. We're all good and and I I'm kind of I don't sound like it, but I'm kind of shy when it comes to like I like the bell but I wasn't.

Speaker 2: 1:15:17

I wasn't able to figure out how to say that to her, you know, because I thought she was out of my league. And so during that break I turned to her and, I don't know, it just popped out I'm like I want to kiss you. And she looked at me like what you know and I said, yeah, and she said, well, you know, maybe not now, not right now. But I said, well, how about a rain check? And uh, a couple of days later we were at, we went to yosemite and and uh, and that you know. And then I, we, we camped there and I looked down the camper vans and you've probably been in one.

Speaker 2: 1:15:54

There's a bed up on the top and a bed on the bottom and I in the morning I looked down and said, uh, hey, how about that rain check? So I bounced, she said okay, and we kissed one time and then that was it. We were together, I mean, we were adults. So you know, nothing really happened except a kiss. And then that day we're driving through that, you know, we got up and, you know, rustled up our campground and this and that, and driving into yosemite for the first time for me, uh, it was just a couple of days after the shoreline run and, uh, the sign on the, the, on the, the ranger, the ranger station, where you pay to get in, it had a, it had a sign, a chalkboard, and there were Grateful Dead bears drawn on there in chalk. And then it says have a grateful day you know, and it's that kind of.

Speaker 2: 1:16:46

That's one of the things about the Grateful Dead that it's like a secret little society and people that didn't know about the grateful dead had no idea what that meant. But when we pulled up there we busted out laughing. I, I took a picture of it because it was so cool and still have it somewhere. I mean that's the kind of thing that that tails from the lot.

Speaker 2: 1:17:07

That's what this is all about you know, it's those kind of experiences that and I'm sure other people listening went. Oh yeah, I remember that, you know uh and it's.

Speaker 2: 1:17:19

it's the beauty, the camaraderie of it all, it's the symbolism, the little steelies. You know, you see one and you're like, oh, you know, you walk by somebody with a dead shirt on and you just, hey, cool shirt. You know, no one else knows, uh, it's, it's a cool thing, and and uh, and now it's a cultural phenomenon, it's part of America, it's part of our history and that's pretty cool and you're part of it. Now you're archiving in the canon and stories that would otherwise be lost and giving those folks like me an opportunity to tell their truths and their experiences and and bring it all together. And, like Bell said, in the canon of the Grateful Dead, you know, that's pretty damn cool.

Speaker 1: 1:18:07

Now, that's how this started. I was trying to remember some stories and and I couldn't remember everything, so I thought, well, maybe I'll talk to some people and it'll jog my memory of the things that I did and saw.

Speaker 2: 1:18:22

And yeah, it's a wonderful thing. We watched a couple of your shows. It's a it's a really cool thing that you're doing and I'm most grateful that, that I get to do this and that others you know have the same opportunity. So I mean, if, if you've been reluctant to be on will show, jump in there. It's, it's cool and uh, I'm sure a lot of people out there got even cooler stories uh than I do. But uh, I'm just one person in this whole big, you know, millions of people now are, you know, have been to dead shows and and have experiences and uh, and I think it's important. So, uh, I I'm most grateful for you allowing us to talk about the chimps and and our work that we do now and how it's intertwined all the way historically back to the beginning.

Speaker 2: 1:19:07

I mean, I, I can remember my first dead albums back when I was like 16, 17 years old. I had new writers albums actually first, because I was, I was a little bit more into that, the birds and that kind of thing. So the new writers appealed to me in a in a way I didn't understand the grateful dead, because grateful dead, what does that mean, you know? But then I heard working man's a day and actually the the skull and roses album and you know, bears, bear's choice, one of my favorites actually, uh so uh, and I have all the albums and roses album and you know, bear's, bear's choice, one of my favorites actually, uh so uh, and I have all the albums and all the.

Speaker 2: 1:19:40

You know, like I said, paraphernalia I got hats and shirts, posters all the stuff all of that stuff, you know but uh but it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a good thing and uh, I'm, uh, I'm actually proud to say that I'm a deadhead and I think. Don't regret a minute of it yeah Like Bill said, we don't regret a minute of it and it's a real honor to be on your show because I think you're doing a service for a lot of folks that have a lot to say that don't otherwise have a place to do it. I appreciate that, thank you.

Speaker 1: 1:20:14

Yeah, absolutely, and thank you, Bob for for taking the time out of your day and bell for joining in.

Speaker 2: 1:20:24

I really appreciate both of you joining in and telling your story Absolutely. And uh, you know I'm on Facebook and Instagram and all that stuff. If you guys want to know more about our work with the animals uh, you know our work with the animals, uh, you know please, uh, feel free to contact me. I I've even had, like scott guberman, who had plays with phil. He wrote to me once and said, oh my god, I saw your movie holy cow. I've had people that wrote to me that are now on the board of directors of animal sanctuaries, that wrote to me and went how do I get to do? And so I've helped them along the way. Turns out, one of them was a deadhead and the first thing he wrote to me in the email was hey, man, you make deadheads look really good.

Speaker 3: 1:21:04

And I laughed at that.

Speaker 2: 1:21:06

But you know, most deadheads that I know are out there doing good stuff. Doing good work, you know, adding to their community and doing important other than being deadheads. They're doing really important work. That I think that bodes well for our community because I think that you know you have to participate and deadheads certainly participate.

Speaker 1: 1:21:28

Oh yeah, no doubt.

Speaker 2: 1:21:30

So anyway, thanks a lot, Will. I appreciate it and feel free to contact anytime.

Speaker 1: 1:21:35

All right, Thank you bud.