TFTL Ep 23 People Were Taking Care of Each Other - The Matrix, Carousel Ballroom, Keystone, and More!

Speaker 1: 1:06

Tales from the Lot, episode 23. People were taking care of each other. My guest is Bill Bigelow, and if you've ever wondered what it was like at the Grateful Dead beginnings of the late 60s, you're going to want to listen to this one. We did have some technical difficulties in the beginning that I think I made worse by trying to fix them. So apologies for the noise, but you will want to get through this one. Here we go.

Speaker 2: 1:27

Hi, welcome to Tales from the Lot. This is Will. My guest today is Bill Bigelow, from Portland Oregon. How are you doing today, Bill?

Speaker 3: 1:35

I'm good, Thanks Will. Thanks for inviting me.

Speaker 2: 1:38

For sure, and so you're in Oregon now, but you're saying you're from the Bay Area originally.

Speaker 3: 1:45

Is that where you're kind of born and raised. I grew up in Marin and then lived all over the Bay. I lived in Berkeley for a spell. I lived in Kentfield. I lived next door to the new Riders of the Purple Sage on Hermit Lane in Kentfield when Garcia played pedal steel with them. And I lived up in Inverness Park in the Point Reyes area and Sleepy Hollow. So all over Marin, oh, wow, yeah such a great area Growing up.

Speaker 2: 2:17

what were you into musically? Like were we listening to like through high school? And how did you find the Grateful Dead?

Speaker 3: 2:23

Yeah, good question. So I listened. You know I was in seventh grade when the Beatles sort of hit and so I, you know I was a big Beatles fan. I went to the Beatles at the Cow Palace in 1964 when they first came to San Francisco. I still have my welcome KEW Beatles banner. And you know I spent my sophomore year of high school in Switzerland and I only had two record albums over there. One was Freewheeling Bob Dylan and the other was Highway 61. So those were sort of you know it was kind of Dylan was sort of my my anchor music and and and the Beatles. And then we got back in 67, just as you know, everything was exploding in the Bay area and the Fillmore and the Avalon, and so that was that was a great time to be in high school.

Speaker 2: 3:26

Yeah, no doubt Highway 61, particular favorite of mine. When did you first see the dead and how did you end up?

Speaker 3: 3:33

there, you know, my very first concert. My friend Ned Leathers I just want to give a plug to Ned, who is no longer living but Ned just had such great musical tastes and just sort of took me, began taking me along and I can't even believe that my mother let me go. But on May 15th 1968, at the Carousel Ballroom at the corner of Market and Van Ness in San Francisco later became the Fillmore West the Hells Angels had a concert with Big Brother and the Holding Company as headliners and the Youngbloods and a little group called Rejoice. It was a dollar. It said no minors. I was like 16 or whatever I was then. But you know they weren't checking IDs and so I felt like, you know, I had kind of discovered the meaning of life.

Speaker 3: 4:31

I'd never seen anything like Dennis Joplin and Big Brother before, and so Ned and I began going to concerts pretty much every, you know, every week, every weekend and sometimes more, and the Dead at that point, that was in the little sliver of time when the Dead and the Airplane and Quicksilver and Big Brother were running the Carousel Ballroom and then Bill Graham had the original Fillmore over on Fillmore Street, and so I began seeing the Dead at the Carousel and they were uneven, you know, they I I can remember one time going and there might have been like maybe a couple hundred people there so, and I remember turning to ned and saying god, I hope that they can get some enthusiasm up with so few people.

Speaker 4: 5:24

And so those were those were before there was anything called deadheads wow that, that's some great bands to see at that time.

Speaker 3: 5:32

It was an amazing time. And you know I don't know if you've talked on your show about Bill Graham and you know you kind of had to love him and hate him, you know because he was a mean SOB, because he was a mean SOB. But on the other hand you knew that if at a Bill Graham organized concert, you know they were going to start on time, you were going to get three bands doing a set each and then they were all going to start again and they were going to play at least until two in the morning, if not more, and they were going to play at least until 2 in the morning, if not more.

Speaker 4: 6:11

And so you know, in some ways it was a wonderful thing to have this kind of you know, I don't know what this kind of a capitalist pig there running the Fillmore West and Winterland too you mentioned.

Speaker 2: 6:31

you know if we, if we have talked about him on the show and and it seems like the few times that he's been included, like he was kind of a hard-ass to whoever he was interacting with, you know you know he was a hard-ass.

Speaker 3: 6:45

But here's the deal. You know he he loved the Grateful Dead. I mean, he had a love-hate relationship probably with the Grateful Dead because he was a quintessential businessman and you know, and the dead were sort of the, they lived in opposite land, right. But on the other hand, bill Graham totally appreciated that. One of my favorite quotes from Bill Graham about the dead is that the Grateful Dead are not the best at what they do. They're the only ones who do what they do and I think that that just captured it perfectly that you know, there was nobody like the Grateful Dead and and you know, and Bill Graham, you know, I, I imagine that the Dead played for Bill Graham, you know, as much as they played for anybody, you know. And so, but yes, he was a, he was a problematic fellow.

Speaker 2: 7:34

But did you keep seeing the dead all through their history?

Speaker 3: 7:39

So my first dead concerts were in 68 and it was really in that period of 68, 69, 70 and 71 that I saw them all the time. Um, I think that my last dead concert was in at in eugene, at austin stadium in 87, when they were touring with bob dylan and um, and it was a whole different scene. You know the when they, when they, you know when they became so big that they were playing stadiums, and for me that was kind of you know, not my Grateful Dead experience, and so you know, I mean, you know the music stayed great, but the experience was not kind of the intimacy that I grew up with and that was sort of post-Touch of Gray too.

Speaker 3: 8:35

Yeah, yeah. But you know, one of the great things about being in the Bay Area was that Jerry Garcia I mean he just played all the time and it was just no big deal to go see Garcia. I mean you could just kind of, you know, you could be sitting around you know dinner and say, oh hey, let's go to Garcia tonight, and you know say where's he playing? And oh, he's at the Matrix, or oh, he's at the Keystone Berkeley, and you know, and just go over and you know rock and roll, god that he became, you know.

Speaker 3: 9:21

Yeah, he certainly did become that what are some of the standout ones that you saw from that 68 to 71 era era was. It was in january of 71 and um, uh, you know, we decided to go over to keystone berkeley and see garcia and um with merle saunders and uh, you know, keystone berkeley was just kind of a little hole in the wall. It was there on university avenue and it wasn't like a big, huge, you know, venue, wasn't like the fillmore or winterland or anything like that, and we didn't know how long it took to drive from, you know, point Reyes and Inverness, wherever we were, and so we left, we got there early and when we got there there was kind of you know, really nobody there and they took our money or whatever. We just walked in and was nobody in there except for the Grateful Dead. The entire Grateful Dead was with Merle Saunders on stage, you know, just kind of rehearsing, doing a sound check or whatever. And so, you know, I mean we weren't even 21, but we, you know, we got a pitcher of beer.

Speaker 4: 10:24

We got the table, we sat in the front row and just kind of kicked back and listened to the Grateful Dead play to him. So that was a wonderful experience.

Speaker 2: 10:35

Yeah, that's amazing. Was there some interaction? I mean like were they appreciative?

Speaker 3: 10:40

Yeah, you know, there was always interaction in the small. I mean, I remember one time at the Carousel I don't think it was when the Fillmore West had started there yet I think it was still the carousel and you know, the dead came out and we would always get there early so you could just kind of you could really lean on the stage. I mean, the stage was just not that tall at the carousel at Fillmore West it was. You know, it might have been like three and a half feet tall or something, and so you half feet tall or something, and so you could just lean on it. And Bobby Weir came out with a plate of tuna fish sandwiches.

Speaker 4: 11:17

Sort of past these little tuna fish sandwiches. I was like, okay, that's cool.

Speaker 3: 11:23

And you know if I was thinking about stories, one of the kind of the I don't know if you want to call it bittersweet but contradictory stories. So I went one night it was sort of a famous concert now. I think it was May 29th 1971. It was at Winterland and a whole bunch of us went and during the concert they, um, you know, they passed out all this uh, punch and you know juice or whatever fruit juice, and it was all laced with acid and uh and I kind of had a sense that it was going to be and I didn't have any. But everybody had a lot.

Speaker 3: 12:12

And you know, some people say that it was the dead who had done this. Other people say, oh no, the dead would never dose anybody like that. But I think of course they would. But it was. You know, a lot of people were taken to the hospital and one of the women who I was there with, she had way too much. She spun around and she just fell on the concrete, chipped her tooth.

Speaker 3: 12:43

But one of the things about Bill Graham and those concerts he had these rent-a-cops, and you know, today you think about these kind of bully rent-a-cops and these were sort of rent-a-cops who they had seen it all. And so this one guy he must have been like 250 or 300 pounds a rent-a-cop and this woman that I was with, who I mean everybody was just really acting crazy, they were screaming. And this woman that I was with, I mean everybody was just really acting crazy, they were screaming. And he went up to her and he put his arms around her and he said sweetheart, everybody loves you, everything's going to be OK.

Speaker 3: 13:21

And he actually went out into the middle of the street this is right after the concert where everybody is kind of going crazy and he stopped this Volkswagen bus, just stopped them, just stood in front of the bus and he went up to the driver and he said you're going to take them. And he gave them the address of this hospital. He didn't ask them, would you? He just instructed that, and so you know. And so we went and you know she was taken care of. But I think that that was sort of you know, sort of you know, sort of the ethos is that you know, even in kind of crises like that, that people were taking care of each other.

Speaker 5: 14:02

Hey there, wanderers of the open road, you to say goodbye to the dull and hello to the dazzling. With Golden Road GPS navigation, the ultimate guide to scenic, colorful and spiritually uplifting routes. Have you ever been cruising down the highway, chasing the sunset and the next adventure, when suddenly you found yourself at a crossroads, unsure which path to take?

Speaker 3: 14:26

Crap, I have no idea where I am. I just want to get to the concert on time.

Speaker 5: 14:30

Fear not, fellow traveler. Golden Road Navigation has got your back. With Golden Road, you'll embark on a journey like no other, guided by the voices of Bob Weir or Donna Jean, and coming soon. Get ready to be serenaded by the one and only John Mayer. His voice may not guide you perfectly, but hey, at least it'll be entertaining. So why settle for ordinary navigation when you can take the scenic route with Golden Road GPS Navigation?

Speaker 3: 15:19

You know, my favorite one that I listen to every week, I mean, is from August 6, 1971. I didn't go but I had a second generation reel-to-reel copy of the tape and you know, it's just like. You know, garcia is just kind of talking to God, you know. I mean, he's just, you know, and it's just so beautiful and it's so powerful, and you just know that people's lives were changed that night and it was like the dead could be. The dead had plenty of off nights, but with their on nights it was like it was just like so spectacular and, you know, like nothing ever.

Speaker 2: 16:07

Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 3: 16:09

I remember going to one of those you know early concerts when it would have either been at the Carousel or in the early days of the Fillmore West, and you know it was before. You know, after a while it became like the dead could do no wrong. They could get up there and they could do anything, and people would kind of scream and you know, applaud and you know give them standing ovations, but everybody was just kind of sitting and I think probably they were playing Dark Star, and then Dark Star kind of moves into St Stephen, and then there's that moment in St Stephen, you know it kind of starts out gentle, and then they just crash into it and it was just as one. The audience just rose and just you know, and it's like you know the dead could just take you places, that you know that only the dead can take you.

Speaker 2: 17:03

That's like right after the lady finger, part Lady finger, yeah. Crashes right in, so you were seeing him with Pigpen.

Speaker 3: 17:14

Oh yeah, absolutely For me there is no Grateful Dead without Pigpen. Pig pen, um, you know, I mean he was. Uh, yeah, I mean you know, you know obviously love light but but so many, I mean it was a great I actually. I know that it's sort of controversial, but you know the period when tom constantin um which I might be mispronouncing his name, but when he came in around the live dead period and and so Pigpen sort of got moved off the organ onto kind of the congas and still played a really important role in singing. But yeah, you know he was.

Speaker 2: 18:01

He was the life of the party.

Speaker 3: 18:03

I believe it. It's funny, you know, I don't think I mean I don't know that any of us knew that he was sick. I don't think I don't know that any of us knew that he was really kind of getting sick during all that period, and so you know it was. I mean he used to. Really, you know, his organ was very centered, I mean he was, it was a big place, a big part of the music, and obviously then it became, it became less so. And you know, after Tom Constant, I guess that the next keyboard player must have been Keith Godshow who came in.

Speaker 3: 18:41

I remember the first time, I think it was probably the first time that Keith Godshow played with them in San Francisco. We went to the Harding Theater and there's a CD of it now, you know well, there's CDs of everything now, I guess. But so the Harding Theater was not a usual music venue. It was this kind of, you know, sort of movie theater, I guess, on Divisadero in San Francisco, and so it was. It would have been November, would have been November of 1971. It would have been November of 1971. And so I think that Keith Godshow began playing with them just a brief period before that. But it was interesting because I liked him. But the dead at that. It was kind of like he slowed them down a little bit, that it. It was almost like he was sort of having to still learn the songs at that point. There's a lot of songs. That was before. Yeah, there were a lot of songs, right.

Speaker 4: 19:56

A lot of songs, yeah, but that was before. That was before.

Speaker 3: 20:01

Donna began singing with them.

Speaker 2: 20:07

Did you consider going to the Wenderland shows in 74, the farewell shows or whatever?

Speaker 3: 20:18

You know, in 74, I was actually an Antioch College student in Ohio, so I didn't I did. I did go to the. All the last days of the film were kind of. In fact you can see Bill Graham walking right by me in that film. I'm in line there and uh, and actually a bunch of my friends, my, my, my then friend, kim Mitchell, see her kind of her, her beautiful blonde hippie face kind of fills the screen at one point.

Speaker 3: 20:50

You know like this is just to tell you about Jerry Garcia. So, garcia, so it's the Rowan Brothers are opening, and then it's New Riders of the Purple Sage, and then it's the Rowan brothers are opening, and then it's new writers of the purple sage, and then it's the grateful dead, and so they're they're going to play it's going to be six sets total, right At Fillmore West. And so Garcia plays pedal steel with the Rowan brothers, garcia plays pedal steel with new writers of the purple sage, and then Garcia plays lead with the grateful dead, and then he starts over and does it all again. So Garcia plays every single set, from like 8. Pm or eight, 30, whenever it started, till you know two or three in the morning, and you know it's just like you know the boy loved music.

Speaker 4: 21:39

What?

Speaker 2: 21:39

can I say that's hungry? Yeah, it's really yeah.

Speaker 3: 21:41

And you know, and hungry, yeah, it's really yeah, and you know, and I mean he was just playing pretty much every night of the week and I brag about this to whoever will listen. But my favorite address of any places I've ever lived is on Hermit Lane in Kentfield, and so Kentfield it's really like within walking. It's like five or ten minutes at the most from College of Marin, but it's this beautiful little kind of you know, dense tree area. It's a dirt road and there were only two houses there. There was our house and there were New Riders of the Purple Sage. I don't know if it was like Marmaduke whose house it was, but their rehearsal room, the New Riders rehearsal room, was their rehearsal room. The new writers rehearsal room was their living room, and so it was right next door to ours and so in my room kind of was on that side of the house, so so I could literally lie on my bed and just kind of just hang out there and listen to Jerry's pedal steel come in through my window.

Speaker 4: 22:43

Just hang out there and listen to Jerry's pedal steel. Come in through my window Wow, it was both the greatest place to live, but also you know just musically, is how lovely to live right next door to them.

Speaker 3: 22:55

It was when I actually got, I was working with the Marine Peace Coalition. I was doing anti-war work at the time, working with the Marin Peace Coalition. I was doing anti-war work at the time. This is the spring and summer and into the fall of 1971. And so I went next door, knocked on the door and asked them if they would do a benefit for the Marin Peace Coalition and this Marin County People's Food Co-op that we were organizing as sort of an alternative to the capitalist Safeway and other food stores. And they said, yeah, sure, and you know, go to our office and here's, you know here's our manager is Sam Cutler and talk to Sam and he'll set it up and tell him that. We said yes, and so I did. I went to the Grateful Dead's office in San Rafael and Garcia was there and just kind of hanging out and Bill Kreitzman was there and the best sound system I've ever heard in my life to this day was in that office in San Rafael, which I don't know, maybe it's possible they still have.

Speaker 3: 24:03

It was in that office in San Rafael, which I don't know, maybe it's possible they still have it. But, and so you know, we met with Sam Cutler and set it up and worked on the dates and got it all arranged and ultimately they said that they had a conflict and they backed out of it.

Speaker 4: 24:17

But anyway, it was my my moment in the Grateful Dead's inner sanctum.

Speaker 3: 24:23

That's a great moment. That's a great moment. It was a great moment and also it was a cool moment, you know. I mean cause this, it was just kind of Jerry and me just kind of sitting in in the office and he's opening his mail and you know these checks, whatever it was. You know $200 from the the, you know Keystone, you know Berkeley or whatever, and and and, but they were playing the dead. I mean, they were playing their own stuff in there and it was just, it was so crisp that you really couldn't tell that they weren't right there playing it. I mean, I've never heard a sound system that good before. You know, they were always changing and you know you see a film like Grateful Dog.

Speaker 3: 25:10

You know Jerry and David Grissman, and you know they just loved all music. I mean they loved bluegrass, they loved blues, they loved country and Western and and the other thing and this is, you know this was, it was definitely true of the dead. I mean they, they weren't trying, they weren't like pedagogues, they weren't like trying to educate their, their you know their listeners, but in some ways they were, they were giving us all a course in the history of american music and and you know, and in some ways bill graham was the same. You know, bill graham, he knew like. I can remember going to see the who and I saw the who three nights in a row and bill graham had woody herman's big band with them, and you know and well, barely.

Speaker 4: 26:02

Yeah, no, we were, and we were sitting right in front with the who too.

Speaker 3: 26:09

And you know, and we'd go to see. You know I can remember going to see the airplane and Bill Graham had Mongo, santa Maria, and the first and only time I went to the original Fillmore back in it would have been late May of 68. So it was the Yardbirds with, I guess would Jeff Beck have been playing lead or Jimmy Page. I think it was Jimmy Page. Your viewers can check that out there, but anyway, so it was. You know it's a beautiful day and you know they played, but Cecil Taylor was the opening.

Speaker 3: 26:51

Now, cecil Taylor, nobody, I can guarantee you, nobody other than people who were coming to see Cecil Taylor. You know, I mean, this is avant-garde, this is like crazy jazz. And Bill Graham did that all the time. You know he had these old blues guys who he would, you know, bring on to play with. He knew that. You know that. You know the Dead, or the Airplane, or the who, or you know Led Zeppelin or whoever was going to fill the place, so he could, he could be an educator past that point, and he was. He had very diverse. You know, pentangle. You know, I mean hippies weren't going to go to see pentangle. I mean I wasn't. I'll just speak for myself. I wasn't going to go see pentangle, but I was delighted, to you know, to be able to be educated in that, in that kind of way. Yeah, I don't know, pentangle or cecil taylor?

Speaker 2: 27:42

I had to I able to be educated in that, in that kind of way? Yeah, I don't know. Or Cecil Taylor, I had to, I had to write him down.

Speaker 3: 27:48

Oh yeah, Look, yeah, Look up Cecil Taylor and, and you know and Pentangle, and you know a lot of those like Burt Yanch and, and who did he play with? But you know a lot of those really brilliant, brilliant British acoustic guitar players who you know, a lot of those really brilliant, brilliant British acoustic guitar players who you know, the Garcia's and the Clapton's, and all those people were listening to them and learning from them, yeah, and, and Bill Graham was, was you know kind of bringing them on to to open, yeah, Did you ever catch Miles?

Speaker 3: 28:26

Miles Davis. Miles Davis, you know I didn't I could have, and you know the people I didn't see when I could have. You know I didn't go to BB King, I didn't go to Albert King. You know I was a little. You know I started going just after Otis Redding.

Speaker 3: 28:52

You know Bill Graham went all the way to Georgia to bring Otis Redding up to you know, to play in the Fillmore, and but that's another thing too. You know he was, you know he would go out of his way to try, and you know, expand the kind of the musical taste of the people who you know, who were those audiences, but also he was being educated by. You know this is interesting that you know people like Michael Bloomfield and Nick Gravenitis and well, even even what's his name, steve Miller. You know these Chicago blues people who ultimately came and settled in the Bay Area. Bill Graham was going to them and say, well, who do, who do I bring? Well, you bring Magic Sam, you bring James Cotton, you bring all these guys. And so Bill Graham just did that and he, he let these, these folks kind of be their, their, their tutors.

Speaker 3: 29:48

And I remember one of my favorite concerts was the very opening of the Fillmore West. It was July 1968. And the headliner was Paul Butterfield and Paul Butterfield Blues Band. It was after Bloomfield had left. And then the second band was a group I had never heard of called 10 years after. And then, and then the opening was, this group called truth, and I'd never heard of truth. But then then they were.

Speaker 3: 30:19

There was a substitute band that I'd also never heard of, a little band from great britain called fleetwood mac, and this is when they were a blues band. Right, it was before stevie nicks and all that. But know, it was Peter Green. And and that's another example of how you know the blues, people are telling Bill Graham, you know, fleetwood, peter Green is like he's, he's big time, he's like he's an Eric Clapton and you got to bring him. And no, no, none of us had ever heard of him. But so again, that sort of that educative role that Bill Graham was playing, yeah, yeah, and you know, and you know all those seeds that got planted, I mean obviously all over the country, but you know, in the Bay Area, talking about Bill Graham. You know the Rolling Stones should have listened to Bill Graham, that you know that they wanted to do the free concert in in December of 1970, 69.

Speaker 3: 31:23

And Bill Graham didn't want any part of it. You know this, is this not not well planned? I, I'm, I'm not going to be part of this. The dead not to their credit were going to be part of it in the airplane and actually the story gets told in different ways. But it may have been the airplane who suggested that Hells Angels do security for the concert. But I went, I was going to school in Stockton, so it was just a short way away from the Altamont Speedway, and so, you know, santana played and the airplane played and Flying Burrito Brothers, who else? And the dead were supposed to play, but the dead just kind of, you know, walked away from it and then, after the airplane played, that was when the stones. You know, they waited and waited and waited and waited and they wanted it to get dark so that their lights would and people had been there. I mean, we'd been there since like six or seven in the morning, I think, and it was just a disaster waiting to happen and it happened big time.

Speaker 2: 32:35

I was just thinking about that when you were talking about the three bands. Two sets each, that's a long time, not only for the band but the people that are watching.

Speaker 3: 32:46

Also, yeah, good point. And also, you know I don't know if you so neither Winterland nor you know Fillmore West. They didn't have seats it wasn't like Fillmore East.

Speaker 4: 32:58

Fillmore East had seats. I understand I've never been to the Fillmore East, but we didn't have any seats. It was all.

Speaker 3: 33:03

you sat on the hard dance floor On the beer floor.

Speaker 4: 33:08

Well, whatever, yeah, and so floor on the beer floor.

Speaker 3: 33:11

Well, well, whatever, yeah, yeah, and so, um, and you know, you would kind of rush in and you'd kind of get your your seat, but then you would sit, you know, first set, second set, third set, fourth set. You know, all the way, all the way through through the evening.

Speaker 3: 33:24

But you know it was, you know we were young and and uh, um, and know we were willing to, whatever it was, and I think it, I think it was two dollars and fifty cents to get in, I think, to the carousel, I think, and I think Bill Graham might have raised it to three or even three fifty, I can't remember, but you know it still was really reasonable.

Speaker 3: 33:49

You know it still was really reasonable. But you know the thing about, you know, I mean it was just I thought that every place in the country, you know that this was going on at the time, I didn't, you know, and because not only did we have, not only did we have, you know, the, the Fillmore, and then you know, for the, for the, if it was a big band like, say, Led Zeppelin, would move over to to Winterland for the weekend. But you know there was also the Avalon and there were other, you know there was, there were, you know, places in Marin County and there was still the matrix I. I saw Garcia there once at the matrix um, which, uh, you know there's a, uh, there's a couple of wonderful um, grace slick and the great society um albums recorded at the matrix um before she joined, uh, uh, the airplane um, but anyway, you didn't realize you were living in such a cultural and political mecca at the time.

Speaker 3: 34:55

I said a little bit, but I did think it was more widespread. I mean, I knew that it wasn't going on in Wyoming, let's say. But and you know, and I went down in the summer of 68. I went down to LA to spend time with my good friend, Jim Green, and Jim was a year younger, but we went to the Whiskey, A Go-Go to see Eric Burden and the Animals a two drink minimum or whatever. And and then we went to, uh, the uh, Santa Monica civic auditorium to see the who um, and that too was a different scene, because, you know, there were seats, you could sit in a chair and watch them, which was, you know, for better for worse so well, it was a, it was a.

Speaker 3: 35:46

yeah, it was a wonderful time to to be there and yeah.

Speaker 2: 35:56

You mentioned you worked for the or you worked with a nonprofit.

Speaker 3: 36:02

Well, yeah, I mean back in the day, I mean I was, I was working with the Marine Peace Coalition and you know, as we were talking earlier, you know, I think it bears, you know, emphasizing that there was a political dimension to all of this. And I remember one time standing in line at the Fillmore and this would have been 68, because this guy had this McCarthy for president button, and realizing, you know, you could look at somebody, I mean, first of all, everybody who's coming to these, you know people have long hair, they, you know, you know you know what they think about. You know legalization of marijuana, you know what they think about the war and the draft, and that, in fact, that there was as imperfect and as weird and often sexist and and sometimes racist and all as it was, that there was this counterculture, kind of brewing, this kind of, you know, defiant movement, that and that the music was a part of that and you know, and there was a more political part, like Country Joe and the Fish, you know, was a more kind of left wing band, you know that. You know, feel like I'm fixing to die rag was, you know, explicitly anti-war and in some less, you know, explicitly political groups like, like the Grateful Dead, but you know, the airplanes volunteers you know, and that the airplanes volunteers you know, and that so, so, so I think it's important to think about the music and the way in which it hooked in to a broader kind of sense of defiance and social justice and and peace in. That was just, yeah, it was an important piece and so that there was a broader education going on. So as I was being pulled more into politics, I was also being pulled more into this whole counterculture at the same time, more into this whole counterculture at the same time. So you gave me an opportunity to kind of plug the organization that I work with.

Speaker 3: 38:17

I'm the curriculum editor for Rethinking Schools magazine. Rethinking Schools is a quarterly magazine, focuses on critical issues in education from a social justice standpoint, and I also co-direct the Zen Education Project, which some of your viewers, listeners, may be familiar with the book A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn. It's sort of the most prominent critical, you know, kind of grassroots teach the truth about US history book. And so we offer free people's history curriculum for teachers who want to teach outside the textbook and that's sort of our mission to provide that kind of of resource and also we try to, you know, we try to offer a way for teachers who want to connect. You know some of the social justice music work with that and so we encourage people to. You know you can just go to the Zen Education Project and you know, put in music and see the kind of the curriculum that comes up.

Speaker 2: 39:28

Awesome. Yeah, I'll put a link to that too, so people can check it out.

Speaker 3: 39:32

I did the teaching guide for the Sun City video. I don't know if you remember Little Steven, who was the lead guitarist for E Street Band back in the 80s.

Speaker 3: 39:48

Do I have that record. Yeah, you sure do. Yeah, it's a wonderful record and it was on kind of regular play on MTV back in the day. But this is a song that you know. Basically it was. I'm not going to play Sun City because during apartheid in South Africa, the South African, the white regime was trying to lure musicians, the same way that Israel is trying to lure musicians to offer legitimacy today that the white South Africans were trying to lure. You know famous acts. You know Rod Stewart played there, tina Turner played there, turner played there and so little Steven and got the song together and got people to agree to be part of this music video. I'm not going to play Sun City and with Bob Dylan and Lou Reed and Run DMC and Africa Bambada and Ringo and Keith Richards and Bono, and it was just. You know it was an amazing thing.

Speaker 4: 40:56

And after that you know, by and large nobody did play Sun City because basically the whole progressive you know, music movement, you know said no, this is not a cool thing we don't offer.

Speaker 3: 41:10

You know, miles davis was part of that. Um, we don't want to, you know, lend our support to apartheid in south africa. And you know, and if you're again, if you're listeners and viewers, you know, go back and look at that. I mean, miles davis is on it and um, it's, it's a whole album too, and I think bono has a song on it. Um, it's possible that keith richards has a song on it, um, but it was, you know, it was really um, it was produced by, um, you know, by little steven van zandt, who you know, who did so many, you know great things during that period. And of course, bruce springsteen is is is part of that sun city piece too.

Speaker 3: 41:51

Bonnie rate don't want to forget bonnie rate, she's on there jackson brown, you know, and she's another one, you know, we were talking about kind of the educative role of, of of musicians, and bonnie rate, really, you know, she lifted up so many african, american blues people and you know, just said, just said, okay, you like me, you love what. You listen to me. You know, let's listen to these other people too. You know, let's listen to John Lee Hooker. You know, and, and so she was always about kind of honoring you know. You know where the music came from.

Speaker 2: 42:28

Right, so okay, so obviously you've got great taste in music. So what's something, what's something you found lately that's struck you as something that the listeners should go out and check out?

Speaker 3: 42:44

Well, I'll tell you one. You know Bombino, so I don't know if you've heard Bombino. So I, I Bombino. So I don't know if you've heard Bombino, so I Bombino is from North Africa and I think of Bombino is like the Jimi Hendrix of North Africa, and so I Bombino.

Speaker 3: 43:06

Well, actually I was going to go to the Portland Blues Festival because I wanted to see Los Lobos. They were headlining this one evening and Los Lonely Boys and Bombino was sandwiched in between and I got a detached retina I don't know, don't ever get one because you have to lie on your side for seven days, and so I couldn't go out anywhere. But KBOO Radio give a little shout out to KBOO Radio in Portland have to lie on your side for seven days, and so I couldn't go out anywhere. But I, but kabu radio give a little shout out to kabu radio in portland um, they, they, uh, uh. You know they had the whole blues festival live, and so I was listening to bombino. I thought what the hell is this? I, you know, this is like music I'd never heard before, and so it's like sort of traditional North African sound. But it's just, but it's got, you know, deep blues, and you know I just rock and roll too, and so yeah. So listen to Bombino.

Speaker 2: 44:04

All right, I'll check it out for sure. Bill Bigelow, thank you so much for joining me.

Speaker 4: 44:13

Thank you, thank you, you. It's been a pleasure.